47. How Americans Came to Feel the Way They Do About Animals with Dr. Monica Murphy

Dr. Ann Hohenhaus interviews Dr. Monica Murphy, a veterinarian and co-author of "Our Kindred Creatures: How Americans Came to Feel the Way They Do About Animals" — a fascinating book that looks at how America’s attitudes toward animals were transformed in the late 19th century. Tune in as they discuss:

• Why Dr. Murphy found this particular time period intriguing
• The effectiveness of Henry Bergh, founder of the ASPCA, in advocating for animals
• The impact the book "Black Beauty" had on animal welfare
• Why an outbreak of horse flu in 1872 highlighted the need for veterinary care
• The role of veterinarians advocating for animal welfare
• How the cruel transport of sea turtles destined for New York dinner tables inspired Henry Bergh to advocate for the welfare of wildlife
• Why PT Barnum was a lightning rod for reformers 
• Does the physical and emotional distance humans have from certain species impact animal welfare?
• Dr. Murphy's ideas for a new book

Also on this month's show: 

• Viral trending animal story of the month, featuring the couple who used their wedding fund to rescue and treat a dog who had been injured in a hit-and-run
• Animal news, including the discovery in Siberia of a 37,000-year-old saber-toothed kitten with its fur, flesh, and tiny whisker tufts intact
• Pet Health Listener Q&A

Do you have a pet question for Dr. Hohenhaus? Email askthevet@amcny.org to have your question answered on Ask the Vet's Listener Q&A.

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Transcript

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We want to remind our listeners that this program is for informational and educational purposes only, and not intended to substitute for professional veterinary medical advice, diagnosis and treatment. The Animal Medical Center does not recommend or endorse any products or services advertised by Sirius XM. Welcome to Ask the Vet with Dr. This is the place to talk about your pets and get advice for the top veterinarian from the Animal Medical Center in NYC. Hear from the leading authorities on animals and ask your questions. Now here's your host, Dr. Ann Hohenhaus. Hello everyone, and welcome to Ask the Vet. It's a podcast for people who love their pets and want the latest in pet health and animal news. I'm your host, Dr. Hohenhaus. And I'm a senior veterinarian here at the Schwarzman Animal Medical Center in New York City and also serve as a director of pet health information. Today, I'm especially excited to welcome Dr. Monica Murphy. She's a veterinarian here in New York City, but is also the coauthor of Our Kindred Creatures How Americans Came to Feel the Way They Do About Animals. This is a fascinating book that looks at how America's attitudes towards animals were transformed in the late 19th century. It's an incredible story of activist reform and a moral shift that continues to shape how we treat our animals today. So I'm really looking forward to our conversation with Dr. Murphy. The Schwarzman Animal Medical Center is the only level one veterinary trauma center in New York City, and we have 114 years of being the very best and taking care of your pet. If you're seeking advice on maintaining your pet's health, I'm here to help. Just send me your questions and there's an email where you can send a question any time you think of one. It's AsktheVet@amcny.org, and that'll put your question in the queue for next month's show. If you don't have a pen or pencil to write that down, I'll give it a couple more times later on in the show so you can hunt down a pen and paper while we take a break. And now it's time for our trending animal of the month. It's time for the internet's most talked about animal. An Arkansas couple's love story turned into a mission of rescue and hope when their wedding fund became a lifeline for a dog in need. On Halloween night, Dylan McKay saw a Facebook post about an injured dog in a hit and run accident that was left on the side of the road, rushing to the scene. He found the dog, who he later named Maple shivering in the rain, bleeding and unable to move. Despite her injuries, Maple was calm and sweet, so Dylan carefully transported her to a local veterinarian. Turns out that both of Maple's back legs were fractured. One leg with the bone exposed. And while initial concerns suggested one leg might need to be amputated. Specialists at Mississippi State University's Animal Health Center were able to save both legs through complex surgeries. Maple's care was costly, and with no owner stepping forward. Dylan and his fiancée, Emily Roberts took responsibility. The couple decided to use their $12,000 wedding fund to cover Maple's treatment, and their act of kindness inspired a GoFundMe campaign that has raised more than $48,000 exceeds Maple's expenses and allowing them to provide Maple with the best possible care. Now officially adopted by Dylan and Emily, Maple is thriving at home. She continues to recover, showing her playful personality as she heals. Maple story is a powerful reminder of the extraordinary things that can happen when compassion and community come together to make a difference. Ooh, that kind of like teared me up there. And now, on a completely different note, but again, about animal welfare, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Monica Murphy. She's a veterinarian, writer, and coauthor of the book Our Kindred Creatures How Americans Came to Feel the Way They Do About Animals. She wrote this fascinating book with her husband, Bill Wasik, who's the editorial director of the New York Times Magazine. This book tells the story of reformers like Henry Burgh, founder of the ASPCA, and George Angell, leader of the Massachusetts Animal Welfare Society, who spearheaded a moral revolution in how animals were treated. This book delves into the challenges these men faced and examines how their efforts laid the foundation for the modern welfare moment. So first, I want to say that I had no idea that Angell Animal Medical Center was named for a person. Somehow I thought it was named for like a heavenly angel type of person. Never really focusing on the fact that it's not spelled like angels in heaven sort of thing. The other thing that that I want the listeners to know is that the prose in this book is wonderful. And I'm just going to read you a quick sentence that shows how lovely the prose is. This is about Henry Burgh from the ASPCA says the very night of his return from Albany, where he'd personally supervised the bill's passage. He armed himself with paper copies of the law in the ASPCA charter and stepped confidently in gentleman's dress from his Fifth Avenue brownstone into Manhattan's frenetic, filthy streets. Really, it's a great sentence, and I am so jealous because I like to write you, but I don't think I could write that particular sentence. The other thing that you should know is this book has quite a sense of humor. And in, the lady in the hundreds, there was, a lot of horses in New York. And so this is from the chapter entitled The Horse Doctors. And it says it's talking about an epidemic of horse flu that swept through New York and kind of paralyzed the city like a transit strike would these days. And so this is talking about what happens when you have no horses. All your horses in New York City are sick in the 1800s. And it says hearses and horse powered ferries fell out of commission, interrupting travel plans for the living and the dead. And I think that sentence is just hilarious. So I'm so happy to welcome you today, Dr. Murphy. She asks the vet. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. So your book covers an extraordinary moral shift in how Americans viewed animals. What inspired you to tell this story? Well, the previous book I wrote with my husband, Bill, was A History of Rabies. It went back to ancient times up to modern day and we dug into the cures that the ancient Romans came up with and the the patron saint of rabies in the Middle Ages, you know, on up through that sort of science guiding the treatment of rabies victims, human rabies victims today. And looking at that whole sweep of history, the most interesting part to us was the 19th century, because so much was happening in in the way people and animals sort of living side by side and in sort of newly energized cities was, you know, sort of forcing reckoning up of conflict, of love. You know, and so, so the relationships between humans and animals were finally becoming recognizable to me. You know, here in the 21st century, you know, people loving their pets and people sort of living with what's happening to livestock in a sort of uneasy distance. And, and so that's why we chose to write this next book. So for New Yorkers, they'll recognize the name of Henry Bergh, because the ASPCA hospital is often referred to as the Bergh Memorial Hospital. And he founded that organization in 1866. So, again, that the late 19th century, he's one of the key figures in the book. He looks a little scary, actually. You have. It's either a drawing or a photograph of him. And I'm like some of these guys in the book. I don't know that I would want to meet them in a dead alley. They're a little frightening looking. Why was he such an effective advocate for animals? Well, he did have privilege on his side. It didn't hurt that he was wealthy. Sort of part of the idle, rich class. So he had also had lots of time on his hands to devote to his project and lots of connections, sort of high up in, government and industry. But I think more than that, it was his just doggedness and, the fact that he didn't really care what anybody else thought, that energized his fight for animals and, you know, just put him outside on street corners week after week, year after year, making speeches, you know, making arrests and shifting norms now in this way towards, you know, animal welfare. Well, that sentence that I read, he day run from when, when the animal welfare law was passed in Albany. So that sentence really sums up everything you just said about him. He was a member of the Idle wealthy. So he was able to go to Albany, which was probably not a three hour train trip in those days. So he went to Albany and came back to New York. And then from his Fifth Avenue apartment or brownstone, went out on the street to enforce the laws. And that that section of the book goes on to talk about him confronting people on the streets of New York. So that fits in there. And the book is very clear on how dogged, Henry Burge was in the pursuit of animal welfare. But you can imagine that anyone who is like we describe Henry Bergh is not without his critics. And I'm sure there was resistance because people needed carriage horses to move goods and people around New York City. And also, there's an entire section on the medical uses of animals in not its sort of research. I guess it's not research like we think of today, but it was probably high class research for 1880. So how did he navigate those critics? Well, he he kind of thrived on, these battles with his critics. He really believed that there was no, publicity that wasn't good publicity. So if his attacks by his critics, sort of brought him onto the pages of the newspapers, he was happy to have that fight. He had a real theatricality. So he would speechifying and and bring his message to the people when the critics were coming after him. And he really, he really sort of got the newspapers, if not on his side. Definitely. Sort of. He had their full attention and they were just eager to cover him because he was always newsworthy, because he was always doing battle and, and saying colorful things about those who opposed him. So there's a big chapter, about black beauty, the book about the horse. And I have to confess, I hated that book. You know, someone gave it to me and said, oh, you like animals? You you know, you'll read this book. I never I just it did not appeal to me, you know, and it wasn't just because it was a horse. Because I read the Misty of Chincoteague, Star Chincoteague. You know, that whole thing. I read those books, like 10,000 times. I love those books. Black beauty, not so much, but it figures in your book significantly because it became a tool for the animal welfare movement. Why? Why this book? So George Angell in Massachusetts was on the hunt for years for a book that could do for animal welfare. What the famous, Uncle Tom's Cabin did for anti-slavery movement. You know, that was that book which also doesn't read super well to to contemporary readers is, famously, you know, sort of helped people understand the plight of the enslaved people of their era. And brought a lot of people into the abolitionist movement, who had been much more passive before reading the book. So Angell found this book narrated by a horse, which was mind blowing to to him and to many of his contemporaries, novels were still pretty new, in the 19th century. This was a communication technology, and the the voice of a horse, which was completely new to most readers of the era. Really, really brought home what it must be like to be a horse sort of in service to humans and many people of the time cited it as their sort of way into the animal welfare movement. So I think the books of the late 1800s are incredibly hard to read. I've read Uncle Tom's Cabin, and it takes you 3 or 4 chapters to kind of get the cadence of that book, another one that I thought was really hard to read. But then it's a great book is A House of Seven Gables, and you read the first chapter and you're like, this is really a struggle. And then all of a sudden it clicks in your mind, but these books are all worth a read except Black Beauty, because I don't. But but it's really, really a very different, set of how the words and everything are so differently constructed than what we think of today. Yeah. I mean, we think of it now as a children's book, but at the time it was a book for adults. It got serious like book reviews in in all the major papers. People were rapturous about it. And preachers preached sermons about it. And and it was it was a hit. Wow. I mean, I and I know preachers preach sermons about, Uncle Tom's Cabin. Well, because Harriet Beecher Stowe’s brother was Ward Beecher, I think, and he was a very prominent clergyman. So. All right, so I already talked a little bit about the epizootic of 1872. So this is a horse flu pandemic. So episodic is just the veterinary term for epidemic, which I've heard is epizootic has fallen out of favor. Somebody corrected something I wrote the other day and took epizootic out and put epidemic in. But needless to say, this was a the opening of that chapter talks about how it started. It was in Canada. Then some horses came to New York, and then it just spread up and down the whole eastern seaboard, making horses really sick and shutting down. As I said in that passage that I read with a sense of humor, shutting down horses, and public transportation. So this episodic then highlighted the need for veterinary care. So how did this particular event become so pivotal in the perception of veterinary medicine? Well, this this was still the very beginning of the era in which owners of animals had the option of going to see somebody knowledgeable and sort of scientifically grounded to care for their animals. And the United States had just opened some of its first veterinary schools, and most of the veterinarians who who really had you know, read papers and, and done, experimental research and all that sort of stuff we think of now is as essential to visionary training. They had all come from Europe. So right alongside these veterinary practices of the the British and French and German veterinarians who'd come to the United States and started practicing high quality medicine, or what was high quality at the time, were just horseshoers and and gosh, any barbers, anybody could hang up a sign and say they were a horse doctor or a dog doctor or a cow doctor. There was no regulation, no licensing, and consumers were sort of left to choose who to, who to hire to, to care for their lame horse or their sick dog. And the veterinarians were very much trying to assert themselves and, and bring students into their schools to learn, you know, scientifically grounded medicine. So on some level, the this terrible horse flu provided an opportunity for, you know, horse, horse health was in the news. And, and veterinarians were able to sort of bring out their message of of we're here to help. We are part of, you know, new scientific thinking, and that that whether or not their therapies were actually very, very good, they did build a lot of trust, amongst people who cared about their animals. And meanwhile, at the same time, people were realizing how important horse health in particular. But animal health in general was to the American economy. I mean, after this horse flu, not only did veterinarians gain more sort of prominence in, in private practice and and more clients of the government started sort of incorporating veterinary medicine into public health and, into sort of regulation of, of agriculture. So, it, it was it was a very sort of important moment in that struggle. Well, Andrew Dixon Wyatt, who was the first one that maybe not the first, but one of the presidents of Cornell University spread. They wanted to establish a vet school at Cornell. He sent, someone to Europe to find the horse doctor, which turned out to be James Law from Scotland. So it really was focused around the horse at that time because horses were so economically important. Because, yes, everyone had a cow. People probably had some pigs and some sheep, but it it was really the horse that drove commerce or the equines, the mules that pulled the boats on the Erie Canal and that kind of thing. So horses drove commerce much more than cattle where you might have if your cow had a calf, you might sell the cow to your neighbor. But but it wasn't full scale horses were big scale. Absolutely even. And maybe especially in cities, which, a lot of people don't realize that sort of the peak numbers of horses in cities didn't happen until very late. After the turn of the century, the Industrial Revolution brought more and more and more horses into cities to pull freight and unload ships and bring the coal to the railroads so that so that these new steam engines could run, horses absolutely were the sort of linchpin of the whole national economy, but especially the urban economy. And without them, people really couldn't move goods, make a living, get to their jobs. Things shut down. Yeah. It's fascinating. So you already said this, but about 1880, there were a large number of schools that opened in the U.S., most of which don't exist anymore. They were a lot of them were two year programs. And then as human medicine evolved into a more science based profession, then veterinary medicine did the same thing. And a lot of these two year more like trade school veterinary programs ultimately closed. There were programs at Harvard and Columbia, and there's some in New York City as well. So this also paralleled the animal welfare movement. So how has the role of veterinarians in advocating for animal welfare changed from the 19th century to today? Well, I think on one level, not so terribly much. I mean, from the very beginning of Henry Burgh's organization, the ASPCA, he had veterinarians, within the organization helping make the case in the courtroom and elsewhere that the harm being done by people to their animals was, you know, sort of measurable and consequential the, the, the sort of shift from veterinary medicine being focused on horses, an animal of economic importance to being focused on dogs and cats, who are, you know, beloved members of the family rather than economically important. And in that same way, obviously means that our role in advocating for animals has sort of pivoted from more careful, like, well, of course we have to work them, and there's a cost to their welfare involved in working them in these industrial settings to just pure love. Like we don't want anything bad to happen to these animals ever. Like we want their their lives to be comfortable and full of joy. And, and so it simplifies the message, certainly, for veterinarians. But I feel like all along reading all the way back into this history, I see veterinarians like thinking hard and, and and out there talking to people about why we should be kind of animals and sort of publicizing cruel deeds and, you know, trying to trying to advocate for their patients to get the best possible care, and, and to also just stop their suffering and deliver a good end of life when, when that becomes necessary. So we were in the Galapagos a few years ago, and I heard the same turtle story that you tell in the book about sea turtles. But I think they made turtle soup out of any turtle that they could get their hands on at the time. And and so the Galapagos turtles that were are really big. And so there was a lot of turtle soup to be made from a couple of turtles in the bottom of your ship as you were coming back. So this is a good lesson in, modern conservation efforts. Is this turtle story? Can you talk about that a little bit more? Yeah. So, so early in the history of the ASPCA, it was actually just in the first months after Henry Berg established the organization, and had the animal welfare laws passed in New York, a routine delivery of turtles from Florida to New York City became, a court case, and a whole sort of public situation. Henry Bergh marched on to the ship that was unloading at the Fulton Fish Market and put the captain under arrest for animal cruelty. The turtles had been transported in a way that was sort of normal at the time. They were on their backs in the hold, and there they were, sort of tied together with with cords that pierce their flippers. Henry Bergh sort of brought this out. Everyone's attention, pointed to the the discomfort, the misery, really, of these turtles undergoing this type of import and tried to prosecute the the captain who really, in reality, you know, sort of wasn't the main problem in, in the whole turtle soup industry. And he what Henry Bergh was much criticized for this, you know, and it really threw a lot of his supporters back on their heels. They they thought they were signing up for a fight against horses being beaten in the streets. And Henry Bergh, you know, made it clear that this fight was much, much bigger, not just about horses, not just about dogs and cats and, and the animals that feed us. But he wanted wildlife protected and that even though he lost that court case and threw a bunch of weird twists and turns in the courtroom in which people argued that turtles weren't animals, they were fish. He still made it clear the animal welfare was sort of a big, big idea that that encompassed a lot, how we live with the animals who work for us, how we live with the animals that are companions to us, and how we live with the animals who are out there in the oceans and in the woods and on the prairies. And I think that that of all the things he did is maybe the most, you know, forward thinking of of his, efforts. Well, and and on his heels, you know, a governmental role follows, Teddy Roosevelt, who did a lot conservation wise, to support the protection of not only animals but the animal habitats. So if you protect their habitat, then the animals are protected, too. So, that that's a good lead in, to what's coming politically in the United States, kind of just Teddy Roosevelt a smidge later than that, I think. But a huge influence in, in our conservation efforts that still go on today. So there's another very polarizing figure in this book who I kind of like, which is P.T. Barnum and P.T. Barnum house is in. Oh, it's in Connecticut. You can see it from 95. That's right in Bridgeport. And it's a it's really a very wonky house with turrets and all kinds of crazy things. But P.T. Barnum figures big in this story because he's a lightning rod for Henry Bergh, and other animal welfare people. What's his story? Yes. P.T. Barnum, Henry Bergh’s frenemy of many years. He, he had been operating a big museum in New York City for actually a couple decades, leading up to Henry Bergh’s sort of bringing the animal welfare movement there. And he was a national celebrity. A lot of what he exhibited was live animal entertainments even before he started his circuses later in life. And he he would not have characterized himself as a abuser of animals or someone who who didn't care about them. To the contrary, he he promoted animals with, you know, silly names and interesting backstories as part of how he tried to bring people to his amusements. And on some level, you know, he, he gave a lot of people, especially young people, sort of their first encounters with, with exotic animals and animals that deserve protection elsewhere. You know, maybe he would have characterized it sort of like our zoos kind of do today. Like, this is this is, good for people to be close to elephants and close to primates. They they learn so much about the animals in their world. He, he though in order to bring those animals to his exhibits, he really did do a lot of damage. He he would decimate an elephant herd to bring a couple of elephants to New York. In an episode we recount in some detail in the book, he trapped whales up in the Labrador coast and he and those whales really endured some terrible suffering during their transport and exhibition in New York. Their lives are will be short. His his advertisements would freely admit. So you better come now to see them. And of course, he attracted Henry Bergh’s, you know, anger and dismay. But like Henry Bergh, he loved publicity. And so when their fights went public, they were very splashy, brought a lot of attention, on the one hand, to, Barnum's, you know, exhibits and entertainments and on the other hand, to, to Bergh's Crusade. So I think they served each other very well, actually. And I agree with you. Like he's he's despicable on one level, but he's a wonderful writer and he's so funny and he, he sort of self knowing in a way that a lot of the other people, you know, we write about, you know, that's harder to see. So that those fights with Henry Bergh are some of my favorite episodes that we recount in the book overall. So, so P.T. Barnum was a good writer, is what you're saying? Yeah. He wrote these autobiographies, updated every decade or so throughout his life. And that's so that's the source material for a lot of the stories we tell about P.T. Barnum. And they're they're a fun read, you know, like, forget Black Beauty, like P.T. Barnum. Autobiographies are just really, chock full of of funny anecdotes where he plays the fool and, and, he gets the better of someone, and they get the better of him. He loves pranks. He loves, to sort of dramatize his, his various, like, financial rises and falls. And, and they're they're pretty fun, I guess. I had no idea. Although his museum, the house museum in Bridgeport, is also very fun. So you discuss one of the biggest challenges in our relationship with the animals is the physical and emotional distance we have from certain species. So one like what species? Like snakes. I would like to have physical distance from snakes. And then how do you think this disconnect shaped the attitudes in the late 19th century? And does it impact animal welfare today? Yeah. Well, you know, we we're so grateful to people like Henry Bergh and, George Angell and Caroline Earle White in Philadelphia for starting the animal welfare movement and normalizing the idea that that we should be better to animals. But there preoccupations really had more to do with witnessed cruelty, cruelty sort of happening in our midst and before our eyes and in front of our children. Those were the sort of abuses that they prioritized ending. And they believed that that witnessing animal cruelty was degrading to human morality. So they really wanted to stop that public horse feeding. And they cared less about making sure that livestock being slaughtered sort of behind closed doors were being treated in a sort of careful and, humane way. And as, as agriculture sort of became more industrialized and centralized into the Midwest. That was a considerable distance. And so that was much lower priority for most of them. Although George Angell did, stay involved with trying to, mitigate somewhat what was happening to the animals out there. And that along with some of the conservation issues which were happening in the West, really didn't get as much attention as I wish they would have from the reformers in the East Coast. So I'm getting a message here that says our time is almost stop. But I want to ask one last question, and that is, what's the next book? Well, can you tell us, can you give us a hint? We got a few ideas that were, are working on, one I'm particularly interested in. Well, maybe I shouldn't really say because it's all in the percolating stage still, but we're interested in snakebite. We're interested in sort of more veterinary history stuff. We're also interested in couples who are creative partners because we've, we get a lot of questions about how that works. And we've been sort of looking at historical creative partnering couples and seeing, you know, that that's sort of interesting phenomenon. Well, I'll just put in one suggestion and that is that Ellen Prince Speyer who's the founder of the Animal Medical Center, or at that time the Women's League for Animals, did so because Henry Bergh, extra out women couldn't join the ASPCA. So just think about that one for the next go around and I'll see what I could. There are some wonderful stories about her in the New York Times, and her colleagues, who are just outrageous women. So I want to take this opportunity to thank Dr. Monica Murphy for being here with us today on Ask the Vet. You can find Our Kindred Creatures in bookstores nationwide or purchase it online. Thanks so much. I know that keeping your pet healthy is very important to you. And with that said, I hope you'll reach out to me if you have a question about your pet's health and I'll respond to your question on next month's Ask the Vet podcast, just email me at AskTheVet all one word @amcny.org. We have a short break coming up, but please stay tuned because there are lots of interesting animal news stories when we return, we're back with Dr. Hohenhaus on Ask the Vet. Well, welcome back to Ask the Vet. It's time for the animal news. It's time for animal headlines, the biggest animal news from across the world. Here's a story straight out of an ice age time capsule in Siberia, prospectors digging along a frozen riverbank stumbled upon a 37,000 year old saber-toothed kitten with its fur, flesh and tiny whisker tufts intact. This little cub is a homotherium, also known as the scimitar cat, a lion sized predator from the Ice Age. What makes this find so wild is it's the first ever frozen mummy of a saber toothed cat. Research believe it was just three weeks old when it died, and its body is packed with clues about this extinct species. For example, its paws had a square patch. Not with little toe beans that our domestic cats have. And these square pads, the scientists hypothesize, help it to walk on snow. It had pale fur tufts near its mouth, essentially Ice Age sideburns. And oh, those saber teeth. Well, they're thinking that the adult fangs might have been hidden under long lips. This is just a start. Scientists are diving into its DNA and anatomy to piece together what life was like for these ancient predators. So stay tuned for more updates. Our second story is a local one here in New York State. And that is it. Beginning September 15th, New York State is banning the retail sale of dogs, cats and rabbits in pet stores. This means if you're looking for a new companion, you'll need to turn to shelters, rescue organizations or breeders. This new law, known as the Puppy Mill Pipeline Act, aims to shut down the pipeline that brings animals from abusive breeding operations into pet stores. It's also meant to protect people from unknowingly bringing home pets with hidden health problems. This ban comes after years of troubling cases, including lawsuits against pet stores accused of selling sick animals. In one case, a pet store chain paid$300,000 in restitution after customers filed complaints about unhealthy puppies. Our attorney general here in New York, Letitia James’ office, will enforce this law with stores facing fines of up to $1,000 per violation. Some argue the new rules could harm businesses, but others see this as a chance for pet stores to pivot, focusing on supplies or holding adoption events instead. So while this ban isn’t a fix-all for issues tied to unethical breeding, it's a notable shift in New York State's approach to the pet industry, aiming to make things better for people and pets. And our final news story today comes from the Berlin Zoo, where researchers have uncovered fascinating behavior that highlights just how intelligent elephants may be. So the Berlin Zoo has Mary, who's an Asian elephant, and she's mastered the art of showering herself with a garden hose. She grips the hose near the tip to target specific areas of her body, and swings the hose over her back to rinse hard to reach spots. She even adjusts your approach depending on the hoses size and flexibility. So it's a remarkable example of tool use in animals. But Mary showers come with unexpected drama, Anchali, a younger elephant, has found ways to disrupt bath time for Mary by kicking the hose or stepping down on it to stop the water flow. Was Anchali playing or deliberately sabotaging the bath? Researchers are divided, but both elephants are demonstrating impressive problems solving and tools use. Giving us new insights into elephants intelligence and social dynamics. So now it's time for questions from our listeners. Our first question comes from Barbara in Connecticut. Barbara asks. I've heard about the potential benefits of both probiotics and prebiotic for dogs, and I want to make sure I'm supporting my five year old dog's gut health as effectively as possible. Are there specific situations or conditions where you would recommend using them? Even if my dog doesn't currently have any digestive issues. If so, how do you decide between using probiotics, prebiotics, or both? So let me start, Barbara, by explaining why probiotics and prebiotics are. So prebiotics are things like specific fibers that provide a nutrient source for the good bacteria in your gut. Probiotics are the bacteria themselves to replace bacteria that have been lost in your gut through illness or antibiotic treatment. And there's something called a synbiotic, which is a product that's a combo of both pre and probiotics. So one thing to keep in mind that my own doctor has told me is that every probiotic or prebiotic is different than the next. And so you have to be very specific in your choice of probiotics and prebiotics, and make sure that the research behind those products supports its use in the condition you're trying to manage. So a lot of times, veterinarians will recommend probiotics for pets on antibiotic therapy because antibiotics will kill the gut bacteria. Other times, in oncology, we use probiotics and prebiotics to help mitigate the tummy upset that comes along with chemotherapy administration. So I think that the most important thing for you to remember is to rely on your veterinarian's recommendation, because your veterinarian will know what pro and prebiotics work in their patient population, and also for the various conditions that we might use pre and probiotics for. Thanks so much, Barbara, for the question. Our next question is from Justine C. And she asks, how can I get my adult cat to use a robotic litter box? My cat just urinated on the living room floor instead of using it. That's the first time in nine years he's ever gone outside of the box. So these robotic litter boxes look really good, and, you know, like, who wants to have to scoop the poop? So I'd be thrilled to have someone else scoop the poop. But the problem is that some of these boxes are a whole lot smaller inside because of the mechanics associated with the box. And, the noise of the robotic scooping can also spook a cat, and then they don't want to go back in there because they say, oh, it's crowded in there and it's noisy, and I don't really like being there. So you need to be sure to choose a box that is at least as long as your cat from nose to tail, and you want it to be about 16in wide by 24in long. When it comes to bathrooms for people or cats, bigger is always better. Another issue is that there's motion in that litter box and sometimes that will spook your cat, which then can cause them to pee on the living room floor like this cat is doing. Other things to think about is a robotic box might cause you to have to use a special litter, because the box is set up for a litter of a certain size or type. And cats don't like change. And one of the things they really hate is if you change the litter in their box because it smells different, it feels different on their feet. And so that change can cause your cat not to want to go into the robotic box. Finally, there's is an advantage to scooping the poop, because that way, you know, if your cat's urine puddles are getting bigger or the cat is having diarrhea. So if your cat's not tolerating the robotic litter box, it may be that you're just going to have to switch back to the traditional litter box. The other opportunity would be remember, you should always have one litter box per cat plus one. So maybe, be sure that you also have your original litter box out so the cat can choose, and it may take cats a while to decide they like something new. So having the two boxes is a way to get your cat to ease into using that robotic box. Complicated answer, but it is really important because no one wants their cat peeing outside the box. And our last question comes from Ali in Florida. The question is, I have heard that liquid biopsies are a new tool for detecting cancer in dogs. Could you explain how they work, how reliable they are compared to traditional methods, and when you might recommend them? So a liquid biopsy isn't really a biopsy at all. A traditional biopsy, which is usually obtained by some sort of surgical method, using some device that takes a little snippet of the abnormal tissue. Or it could be abnormal liver or abnormal skin, abnormal intestine. And then those samples are processed, processed a very standardized way and reviewed under the microscope by a veterinary specialist called the pathologist. And that helps the veterinarian to sort out what's causing your pet's problem. A liquid biopsy is looking at the blood in general, and it looks to see if there is evidence of cancer in the blood stream by maybe looking at the DNA in the blood stream, by maybe looking at other products that could be produced by tumors. So these are really a screening test rather than a diagnostic test, a test that gives you some idea that maybe your pet has a problem. And so the veterinarian submits a blood sample on your pet to the liquid biopsy company. And then a report comes back and says something like a cancer signal is, is or is not detected. And then if a signal is detected, your pet needs a workup to try and figure out where the problem is. So this is not at all the same type of test as a traditional biopsy. It gives veterinarians an idea whether your pet might have cancer. And really veterinarians trust the biopsy and rely on that to tell them the type of tumor. Before we would go ahead and treat the patient. So a liquid biopsy may be helpful in some cases, but it is not the test I use when making treatment decisions for pets with cancer. And now we'll take a brief break. And when we come back, we'll have important information from AMC's Usdan Institute. We're back with Dr. Hohenhaus on Ask the Vet. Hi, and welcome back here to Ask the Vet. I'm going to share with you important information from AMC's Usdan Institute for Animal Health Education. Winter is just around the corner. Actually, that sentence sounds dumb right now because it's like 32 degrees here in New York City. But winter brings chilly nights, snowy days, and the perfect excuse to snuggle up with your favorite animal companion as the temperature drops. So you need to take a few extra steps to keep your pets safe and comfortable. Whether they're homebodies or outdoor adventurers, first start by making sure your pet has a warm draft free spot to rest. Avoid over bathing or shaving because the natural oils and fur provide them with their own winter protection. If you're using a space heater, choose one with a heavy base and a cool exterior. And always supervise your pets when it's on. I think some of these space heaters, if they get tipped over, also automatically turn off. That would be another good feature, that I just thought of for a space heater and pets for dogs heading outdoors. You want to protect their paws from ice and that ice? Melt salt with booties or paw wax. And for dogs with really thin coats, you might want to consider a coat or sweater on top just to make sure they're toasty warm before you start your car. Always beep the horn or bang on the hood with your fist. Since cats and small animals may crawl up into the engine block where it's warm, when you turn your car off and park it. And then the last thing is that antifreeze is extremely toxic to pets. So clean up any antifreeze spills immediately, and be sure to store the antifreeze safely out of reach. Winter can be a magical season for pets and their people, but a little bit of preparation goes a long way. So by taking these precautions, you're going to help to keep your animal companions safe and comfortable all winter long. Now we have an upcoming event on Wednesday, January 15th. So you'll be all recovered from the holiday activities. 6 p.m. January 15th. The Houston Institute will be hosting a webinar on seizures and epilepsy, and this features one of our favorite neurologist, Dr. Daniel Cimino. Now, all of the Usdan events are free, but you have to register so we can send you the zoom link. So to find that registration page, you would go to amcny.org/events and then click on Dr. Cimino’s presentation so that you can register and attend for free access to timely and relevant pet health articles, upcoming pet health events, video tutorials and other pet resources. Check out AMC's Usdan Institute for Animal Health Education by going to amcny.org, and click on the light blue box in the top of the ribbon on the top of the page. I'd like to especially thank my guest today, Dr. Monica Murphy, for joining me to discuss her book, Our Kindred Creatures. You can find her books online and in bookstores nationwide. If you want to know more about your pets well-being or looking for pet health advice, just email me at AskTheVet@amcny.org, and I'll answer your questions on next month's Ask the Vet program. Don't forget that this podcast can be accessed on the Sirius app, across all major podcast platforms, and also on AMC's website. This is all thanks to AMC's long standing partnership with Sirius XM. Don't forget to check AMC out on social media on Facebook. It's the Animal Medical Center and on Twitter and Instagram, @amcny. I'd appreciate it if you take a moment to give our podcast a review and like and subscribe. So you're going to receive all our new episodes as soon as they drop. I want everyone to have a wonderful holiday season, and we'll see you in the New Year with another episode of Ask the Vet.